Where Are We With Impeachment?
Left Of Center has a post that everyone should see, on an entry at Daily Kos-"Articles of Impeachment"(Aaraujo)which makes a great script for impeachment.Where are we on this, anyway? And what is the best strategy? Contacting reps to push?
39 comments:
still coming at from my side versus yours? our side is one side, and the lobbies and elected officals are on the other. unless you are an extremeist on either side, you are not empowered. the individual has to become involved, or nothing will change.
what the hell, no one has been listening to me anyway. pass me the doritos and let's watch cable news on our ass.
I really like your corporation and the content of yours and the others' posts.
I am in the same boat about questioning Impeachment. I guess as a lot of the pundits put it, we must do what we can to have fair elections in 06 and hope we can change the makeup of congress enough to get the votes to do it.
They go from one scandal to the next so fast here lately it is hard to keep up with the wheels that are falling off their KeyStone Cops mobile.
I guess we just keep documenting it and keep what we can in the public eye. I think that is one of the advantages of the blogs compared to other media. We have to just keep up with their mistakes and hope it will not take too many decades to fix them...
Regards
- fc
( fatcat politics )
( NeoAlertz )
Thing is, I used to view it as a matter of 'fixing' and only recently came to view the state of the world as being a bit beyond repair. How likely is it that we can turn back the clock on so many, many problems? Can we really revolutionize the relationships that people have with their possessions, and their sense of entitlement? What dramatic change will deinstitutionalize indifference? What form of revolution, force, movement...could possibly pull us from the edge when we hit it?
We are heading toward the edge with such an exponential velocity that nothing will brake us in time. I have never felt so pessimistic... when Bush got elected AGAIN I remember just shaking my head and thinking that people are just unwilling to see no matter how much is in front of them.
The main point of the post on my site, not only being that impeachment is needed, but that the states themselves can start the process. Bush needs to be shown the consequences of being responsible. Thanks, Lily and LTN.
And what is the best strategy?
You've got to applaud the initiative (LoC and KOS), but without a House win in the midterms for the Democrats this is still nowhere, as the committee will be formed and then promptly bury the issue.
That is quite true Kvatch. At a glance many Republicans stand to loose their seats. It's for the Dems to mess up. Of course there are dubious signs out there already as the case with Paul Hacket. Perhaps this port issue will shore up some Republicans as being independent of the President. Something that could help them enormously if perceived as genuine.
(previous post deleted due to my lack of good spelling)
Lily, if you read the comments for fc, then you see the motivation for my frustration. both sides seem to think that when they are in power they will change things. both sides, ignore who the actual power is, I am doing yet another post on Sunday, laying it out for everyone in crayon, and it will probably hit the wall and slide down just like all the rest of my posts have. like mindless robots, they keep droning on, using the same techniques, and deluding themselves did any real change can actually be made. as long as we stay divided, nothing will happen of any real value. just superficial changes, and then the other side will come back in power again. SSDD
I copied what is below from my response to you on my site:
" I know how frustrating it is to care, care, care until your brain bleeds."
boy did you say a mouthful there. I also hope you know I was not accusing you of sitting on your couch and eating Doritos, that was my alternate ego, suggesting that is what I should do, that I should just say screw it all, live out what few years I've got left, and let the children of all these apathetic pricks die in misery. which is what's going to happen at the current rate. there are times where I feel as though I have just become another content provider of entertainment. tell me you don't feel that way sometimes. supposedly wiser people than me, keep telling me to plug on, and eventually they will get it, eventually people will actually stand up and do something. I made a promise to do this gig until 2008. I am sticking to it, because my word is good. on the other hand, the Doritos and the couch, look more attractive each day.
(gets up on soap box, looks squarely at Rev. Gisher)
What is the expectation versus result? What kind of action, response does it take to feel like what we say matters? The most commonly desired forms of validation are often the most elusive. And are often tied to external validations. Endeavor to shun that.
Sometimes we must be content with the ripples because truly, that IS as good as it gets for most of us. Endeavor to be content with that.
Will every blogger change the world? No. Will every blogger draw a crowd? No. Displaying porn would draw a crowd, and so if it was about hits or comments, the best strategy would be to post porn. Then politics. I don't think that we can judge other people by how they respond to US or what we write. Our judgment is not the bar beside which others and their interest might be measured.
Bitterness is the product of unrealized hope. Many activists start out with hope, then retreat as angry bitter people. Blogging is like that too. Bloggers look for feedback on a post they poured their souls into- but the praise never comes. Pour your soul anyway.
My take has looooong been that one reason passionate people have trouble with social action is because ego maturity is essential. The ability to let go of being right, the ability to be flexible, to hear feedback. Humility, is what helps us connect. And without connection we will not get anywhere because nobody can go it alone. Even the most inspiring people in history knew that they needed others, and to be open to truth as others see it,not only as they see it.
The issue is not WHY we bother because that is often obvious. If people do not hear our message, we cannot spew venom at the people, we have to retreat and go back to the drawing board and figure out if we are hearing as much as we are speaking. A preacher preaches to people. A leader listens to people.
I think a leader acts despite the multitude of voices rattling around his head...a leader isn't put in charge to hear everyone's voice and then act...Action takes conviction & courage to respond with a gut check and you can't get that from anyone but yourself. For example in America we elect our leaders to react for us...When a situation arises they can't wait to hear every single citizens opinion and then react...A coach on a sports team can't wait for his players to give him direction...He has to act on his own and in what he feels the best interest of his team is despite popular opinion & backlash.
Guess we’re both having one of those days where the soapbox is getting a workout.
What his expectation versus result? Frankly I did expect people to have some reaction, I did expect people to become more involved. These days, yours truly has resigned himself to looking for the needles in a haystack. Looking for the tiny portion of the people, that are not a bunch of lard Butt’s. that is a reality, I will grant you it’s not a pleasant one but it’s a reality. The vast majority of human beings appear to be opiated.
I’m not seeking validation, I was validated before I even started his blog, in my continuing to do it, I continue to validate just by doing it. The problem I see here even with you (please correct me if I’m wrong) is too much of a focus on now, here, and me, emphasis on the word me. I am looking ahead, I am not looking out for me, I will be dead and gone when the shit hits the fan. I am looking out for those who are younger than me, and those who have not yet been born. Again please correct me if I’m wrong about this.
As for being content with the ripples, I would’ve walked a long time ago, if I did not have the patience to wait for the ripples to work. Do not interpret this as me being overly optimistic, because that I am not.
Will every blogger change the world? Only if they get together with all the other bloggers, and speak as one, and they will only do that if they find common ground between them, which is there. And that will only happen, if they open their eyes and see the truth that stands in front of them. reality is what is left after you close your eyes hoping it will go away, and when you open them, it’s still standing there. Denial is the option most people choose because it’s easier.
I do not attempt to judge others, that is not my domain. I merely observe their actions, and comment upon them. for those that believe in God, God will do their judging.
Back when I was in the working world, I punched the clock every day when I left, there was no actual clock for me, but I symbolically punched it, to remind me that it was time to leave work at work and go home. As for being bitter, when I stop and think about it, I am indeed angry, the lethargy, and the seeming desire to continually go round and round in circles is really unfathomable to me, but I have learned that seems to be the way for most. Don’t you worry sister, when I punch the clock at the end of the blog Day, the works stays at work. I’ve got too little of my life left, to stay bitter about others’ ignorance and apathy, which would effectively screw up what little enjoyable life I have left.
As for me spewing venom, when I’m on the job, I’m on the job. and I’m not going to candy coat crap for anyone. One of the effective ways to deal with anger, and have a healthy emotional life, is too vent the anger. I will not keep it inside for anyone, because then I am allowing them to screw me up. If I see someone saying something stupid, I’m going to point out, I’m going to blast them. as for humility,, you don’t know me personally, but trust me I don’t think I’m God, I don’t think I’m God’s gift to anyone, I am just a human being who cares. Some people style is to be soft and cuddly, that is not my way. This will not work for everyone, and I hope there are lots of soft and cuddly people out there to work with those who need soft and cuddly. I take names and kick ass, that’s my style. And if I offended anybody from this, too freakin bad, because they offend me with their stupidity, with their apathy, with their inability to think outside the box. If they have a right to stand in your common box and say something I find incredibly stupid, I have a right to stand in your comment box, and say something incredibly offensive.
If I were trying to get people to meet a particular brand of food, or purchase a particular product, or vote for a particular candidate, your words might have some leverage with me. but I am trying to make humanity realize that we have to think differently, or we will go extinct. I will stop ranting, much to everyone’s relief, in January 2008. If nobody gets it by then, oh well I’ve done my part, and I’m going to go back, to sitting on the couch and he my Doritos, and enjoying what little of my life is left. I learned a long time ago, not to spend my entire life, beating my head against a brick wall.
RE: He has to act on his own and in what he feels the best interest of his team is despite popular opinion & backlash.
Excuse me, but this flies in the face of representative government. The president is a servant and only a temprorary one at that. Indeed, the great flaw in the American Constitution is that we don't have a no confidence vote like many of the western democracies do. When we have a virtual parliamentry situation like the one we have now, impeachment is a joke; the corrupt Republican Congress will do nothing to remove their beloved sociopath.
Rather, there should a provision in the federal constitution which would allow for grass roots movements that would force the president to stand for a no confidence vote at any time during his two terms.
I would make it relatively easy for the process to proceed at each state level-the process being uniform according the Constitution in each state. After that you would require a simple majority of the American people to force a no confidence vote. If the president fails to capture a majority of votes from the American people (the elctoral college being strictly forbidden in the no confidence process) a new election with new candidates would be held at the earliest possible moment. The president vice president and the members of his cabinet would not be allowed to run, although I could live without this final provision if I had to.
I would apply the same provision to both, United States Senators and members of the House of Representatives--only in those cases the inititiative would begin with the various districts within the given state. (Here in Wisconsin we have a similar provision for elected state officials. We simply collect X number of signatures and force a recall election.)
When the corrupt members of a corrupt political party protect a corrupt president then there should be a viable outlet for the people to take charge and fire the goons who are messing up at the top. I
n a representative government the people are the employers, the elected officials are the employees, and when our employees fuck up as badly as these sociopaths have fucked up, the two things they desrve and the only two things they desrve are a swift kick in the ass and detailed directions to the nearest unemployment line.
I agree with the Rev, only if we join our voices together will we be able to affect change.
But expecting the Democrats to do something? That's just plain carzy. there have been many opportunities for them to so, (Like the recent vote to take Iran before the Security Council)and they've sided with the corporate President every time. There are good people on both sides, Ron Paul, Cynthia McKinney, John Conyers, who are trying to change the direction the county is headed in, however, who will the Democrats (or republicans for that matter) offer us in 2008? The same old suppositiory in a different wrapper.
I think I know when to cut and run here. We are talking about entirely different things. I only responded to Rev on this blog because he brought the comment here- copied it. We are talking about whether or not we should judge others, the amount of work they do, and whether or not their responsiveness to what we put out there is an indicator of their idiocy.I say its not. I am involved with many organizations and organize/work much of my free time including online where maybe my efforts (like the current one on the sidebar) are petty compared to the likes of you guys..I am trying to do something. Albeit small.
But I am no 'better' than my friend who works two jobs and struggles and has little energy left at the end of the day to pontificate. Some people NEVER punch out.
You think what Rev described was leaving judgement up to God?
What, exactly, is accomplished for unity and joined voices- by engaging in pissing contests? Did you ever see ANYONE change somebody's mind that way?
Did you ever see a time when might REALLY made right? That's American hubris, these little bitchslaps don't convince peole of things. Connections, commonality works first. Then dialogue.
Wonderful comments, Lily. Would be nice to impeach the whole lot of them ... Cheney as pres is pretty scary ... maybe we just need to ride it out ... making a record of the crimes against the world, nature, humanity, as proof that there really are problems that need to be addressed so urgent that they might get enough eyes torn away from reality tv to pay attention to who is elected and what they hell they are doing ... in other words ... Bush may be a force for good in that he is bringing the obvious need for not little changes but mongo frickin' changes to a head a lot faster than your average moderate could or would ever do ... but it is painful and scary to watch ... I guess, just like some asked about Iraq ... "What's the post-impeachment plan?" In the meantime, the land of the camel jockey will be running the ports, the ice melting, and Iraq burning. As noted in the post just put up at www.roryshock.blogspot.com the term "camel jockey" is not a racist epithet, but the name of a human rights violation ....
He and his party control all three branches. As much as we want it to, there's little chance it'll happen.
He's planning at least two overseas trips. I wish they could arrest and charge him on foriegn soil (for international war crimes).
Go Rhode Island, Go!!
" their responsiveness to what we put out there is an indicator of their idiocy.I say its not."
if you ignore that the real power is on K street, and the average joe has no control currently, you might not be an idiot, but you might be in denial.
if you ignore that both parties got us into the Iraq war, remember Kerry's remarks? you might not be an idiot, but you may just be in denial.
i am sorry, i come from a family of lobbyists and attorneys all who worked or work on K street. i had to face up to the way the system really works. not the idealistic candy-assed way so many of you think it works. you have been watching too many "mr. smith goes to washington" movies. we have serious problems coming (pollution and overpopulation) that have been ignored by both parties. why? they are lobbied heavily by business to avoid making the expensive changes they need to to correct the problems.
abortion will not stop by making it illegal, but who wants it to continue?does anyone want more abortions?
we have so many problems like this, that could be solved if we worked together. i try and point this out, and get attcked by the extemeists from both sides. why? because the extremeists control both parties, and they do not want to lose power.
what have i been hearing for twenty plus years? wait till our party gets in, things will change. MY ASS!
First of all this is so full of assumptions about Lily, as are some of the other comments, and none of you know who she really is or what she does. You don't know anything about her, her record, her positions on these matters. I do know her personally, so it is always very interesting to read these things. I read the assumptions made, based on things she did not say and would not have said. You might think about some of these things and if you really have enough information to write such accusatory statements. This, from people talking about peace, diplomacy?
You also made comments about thinking about the future generations- as though none of us have children and grandchildren. As though other people aren't concerned. Like nobody else is doing anything. You don't know what anonymous unknown people are doing! Because we all do different things to show our concern? What has she shown YOU about what she really does? My guess is nothing. You assume.
i love the bravery of anonymous posting!
What balls?
ok smart ass, this is a direct quote from lily, look it up above:
" their responsiveness to what we put out there is an indicator of their idiocy.I say its not."
if i told you a truck was about to hit you, and you told me you were not an idiot, because you did not respond to my warning, when the truck hits you, you would not be an idiot, you would be a dead idiot.
i am am telling both the left and the right a truck is coming in the way of over-overpopulation and pollution. you guys just all stand there and get whacked. if it makes you feel better, i will not call you an idiot, i will call you cautious but dead. how about that.
i do not know lily, but i can read a quote.how bout you ball-less wonder?
for anyone, liberal or conservative, reverend gisher has no sacred cows other than all of our children and grandchildren.
"so many of you think it works"
"laying it out for everyone in crayon"
I am getting the impression that Rev does not read the actual posts here very often.
Like many people, he sees the 'liberal forum' link button and takes his set of assumptions out of the box. Many of us did not support Kerry OR Bush. Many of us are third party people, who have worked tirelessly on campaign finance, and against this war. Many issues.You clearly have not read many posts, do you just write a comment and then scurry off?
These comments are just littered with what you think you know about people around here.
My objection is to the conclusion that YOU are screaming that the sky is falling and WE are doing nothing. What do you know about what any of us are doing in real life? We don't have to discuss it with you. It goes without saying that there are many idiots doing nothing but nobody needs you to point that out! Is that your organizational effort, to point out that the sky is falling then point fingers? Point out how we are all doing less than YOU??? Please.
You are the only one who knows the 'real deal' and YOU are the one telling US a truck is coming? This is nervy. But the typical finger pointing, do nothing but spread animosity crap that we can only expect more of from self aggrandizers. Beyond low brow, what do you do exactly that is so superior that we are all idiots by comparison? DO TELL.
Kumbaya
why are there so many bone brains?
go on and talk about everything else in the world. ignore my point. that is a tactic idea with all the time. and it doesn't wash with me.
look at Lilly's quote.period. I disagree with her. when you continue to ignore the obvious, and think that changing parties solves our problem, you are an idiot.
if you disagree with what I've just said, then you go ahead and tell me, that changing parties will solve the problem. tell me that is what you believe. if you cannot say that, then either you agree with me, or you have no formed opinion at all. which one is it? I'm not going to sit here for days, and let you squirm around all over the place.
I say that anyone that thinks changing parties will solve all our problems, is an idiot.
disagree, agree, or I am an idiot that has no opinion, which one of these is your position?
after you answer that, if you want to talk about football, or the weather, or any other topic, I'll be happy to. right now it be real nice, if you cut through all the bullshit and answer my question.
Other than actually knowing what I’m talking about, from personal experience of my own. I don’t know anything. These guys we elect, and some of them are good men, (I actually do know several of them) pretty much have to do what they are told. You may not know it, but a huge number of our bills, a massive number of our laws are passed, were written by lobbyists, in their office, and handed to a representative, where it zipped right through Congress. If this does not disturb you, you are an idiot. We cannot change this system, without changing the Constitution. I personally do not want to advocate changing the Constitution. I personally advocate all of us getting involved, in somewhat of a unified manner. I took issue with nothing else on this blog, and I’m all well aware of most of Lilly’s positions. I took issue with the initial comments made at the beginning of this thread, it tended to suggest that the world would vastly improve, if only our party were in power. I do not say these things to attack you or anyone else, I say these things hoping to wake you up. I am on the side of the survival of the human race, which side are you on?
WELL! Gisher, I could never get caught up with all this!!!!!
Umm. The statement about idiots simply means that you don't really know who among us are idiots versus those working very hard on legitimate things that very much mesh with your stance..if we don't keep you in the loop, are we idiots? Should I send a resume? Should I set about proving that I am not deserving of your scorn? You can have your opinion. Hey, I'm peaceloving.
I said that I do not think you personally have the ability to judge who is an idiot based on very limited knowledge. By default, we can say we are ALL idiots and I would agree that we are. And I agree with what we are doing, andour demise.But degrees of idiocy? Well, I'll leave that to you and defer to your authority on that.
I simply asked what you were expecting from YOUR POSTS. What action? What action in response to your post would have convinced you that I am aware of the troubles you describe with our system??? You write humor, your comments are generally not of a serious nature. What did you want? There are blogs that seek to organize, inform. I simply asked about your expectations. What you do with your voice is your business, I can only control my own.YOu can degrade it. I'm still peaceloving!
Now we don't know each other in real life and are not about to swap details. But you also cannot lump everyone together into the idiot pile.
Now as BLOG action goes, what have you tried that has not worked the way you wanted? Why not talk about what you want to see happen? Do you want more comments of a serious nature? What? Do you want people to read a skit about Hillary in the confessional and be 'called' to jump in front of a Caterpillar? I simply asked WHAT you wanted. Fair, right? What did you expect X to produce in terms of Y to your satisfaction?
For example, in working on this Corporate Blogfest, more than twenty-thirty bloggers have committed to posting on corporate crimes. As a blogger, you can do many things. In real life, you can do many things. I have worked in political offices, I am aware of the behaviors you describe and I am aware of the influence of lobbyists and K street. I have said from the start that campaign finance and lobbying should be a number one priority and said that many times, followed by election reform and ballot access. I never said that the 'next clown' will save the world. I am a movement person, an ISSUE person...not a person who thinks a broken car will be fixed by changing tires!!!
Your many assumptions are kind of condescending, which surprised me but, so be it.
I am not a cheerleader for politicians, although I will admit that I used to work for Democrats. I don't think either of us need to get personal. It would take a long time to address each of your positions, and for what? You are free to think I am an idiot. power to you. If you think I am asleep, think what you want. But you don't know me.Or my positions.
Personally, I would say that Lily has more in common with Ted Kazinsky. But with hygiene.Who else would work for Nader and cost us Democrats a close race?
first let me say I love TP's less comment, and secondly, I did not want to tool with you Lily. you know I like you. but I ask you.
do you think that changing parties will fix all of our problems?
yes or no?
I'm sorry but I don't like going round and round forever. let's cut to the chase, answer the above question, and I will be happy to answer any of yours.
it's a simple question lily.
yes or no? why won't you answer it?
answer and then ask any question you like.
i will answer any simple question. why can't you?
ding ding ding ding ding ding ding
(this is the jeopardy tune I'm humming)
ding ding ding ding ding ding,
dink de dink dink dink dink ding,
(anybody keeping track of time?)
da de dum da da de dum, da de dum de dum, de deedle dum ,
da de dum de dum de da.
dink de dum de da de dum.
i'll be back in the morning to see if you actually answered my question straight up. yes or no?
Esta empresa, que cuenta con grandes artesanos del espectáculo del fuego, trabaja el arte de la pirotecnia desde hace tres generaciones.
Best Political Song of 2005 - vote for one of the nominees at:
http://tinyurl.com/ofvrv
Thanks!
Dammit, Gisher, if you really lived in Bugtussle, NY, you would know that as per our time zone, it was midnight! Now I am a devout insomniac, but I get up at six. Cut a lady some slack.
"do you think that changing parties will fix all of our problems?"
"yes or no?"
No. Did I say it would? no. Did I ever claim that ANY single remedy would fix our problems? NO. Do I think any candidate would have solved all of our problems? No. When did I say the answer lies in changing the parties? Now I do think that there are DEGREES. its not a 'fix all the problems or you suck eternally thing". Some politicians are clearly better or more responsive than others. Do I think changing Santorum with Casey in PA would matter? YES. is it because I am an idiot, or because it yiled better odds for more desireable outcomes?
Life is not black and white, Rev. its not that we act as you would design or we are idiots, its not that anyone expects any act or paqrty or candidate to 'fix all our problems'.
I made it very clear- I focus on issues, not parties. Reform that makes a political climate more conducive to what needs to be done. Do I think a Democrat would have lied to the American people and been influenced by lobbyists? OF COURSE. But this is like trying to ask if I like Pepsi or Coke when they both suck, Rev. I never made the claim that simply replacing the officials would make all the difference.
If I wrote what I thought would make a difference truthfully...but I have answered your question. Let's go our way in peace and good humor.
thank you so we both agree. i only started in this thread because of this statement from fc:
"I am in the same boat about questioning Impeachment. I guess as a lot of the pundits put it, we must do what we can to have fair elections in 06 and hope we can change the makeup of congress enough to get the votes to do it."
i would like you to reread this entire thread and look at what happened to me when i "dared" to make a comment about how silly fc's statement was.
"your crowd" went all over the place, and i had to ask like 5 times to finally get one single question answered. thank you lily for finally stepping up to the plate, but right here on your own site we have already proven what happenens to people with different ideas from the cattle herd. the herd tries to trample them.
makes you proud doesn't it?
how dare me friggin think.
how dare me friggin speak my mind.
but it's ok for everyone else here to do so?
that is what is conveyed, but you won't see it, because you see me as the offender. i admitted i can be offensive. when will this crowd realize they are too?
guess what, probably never.
liberal thinking huh? where?
I have not called you an offender, I appreciate the views expressed on all sides, and have tried to answer your questions. I think you are being particularly harsh and screechy on this.I do not control the comments, or the feedback- some have asked me to be responsible and delete people or comment on everything, but I cannot. I think censorship is wrong, and I also think that we are grown up enough to take comments for what they are worth. More important is the preservation of our right to speak. If I have failed you somehow, I think you might consider a less 'idiotic' blogger. After all, your surveillance of me no doubt confirms that I am an idiot about to be hit by a truck, from the path of which I will not move, right?
I speak for myself. Even the contributors on this blog have VERY different views. Some of us are more active with blogging than others, some of us write for a variety of sites and blogs. We are all different, but we all have things to say. It is common for people to come in here, make demands and hurl insults, then call the liberals verbally assaultive hypocrites. Its a ruse that we are quite familiar with, taken from the OReilly playbook. Act inflammatory and demanding and insult everyone, then when 'liberals' take the bait, attack their liberalism!!!! Coulter 101!!!
I know that I try to hear, respond as respectfully as I can. Just as the President is not to blame for people that refuse to engage, the weight of the liberal cause is not on my shoulders, Rev!!! Everyone owns their opinion/action. You can always opt to ignore a comment. Or a blog that troubles you. Thats autonomy. We must resist the urge to be reactive, but also be open to hearing.
You did more than ask a simple question, you accused people of being idiots, for starters. And needing YOU, the EXPERT, to draw things in crayon. You were rude to me when I was NOT rude to you. Own that much, Rev.
If you see no role in participation, then feel free to blame the liberal 'crowd' as you see fit. There are many people here who have contributed very thoughtfully to some very good discussions, people from all kinds of perspectives with different things to offer.
It might suit your needs to post at your blog about your questions. Categorically insulting people is not helpful. It has now happened in this thread more times than I can abide.
And the jeopardy thing? What makes you think anyone is here to be your bitch???
"that is what is conveyed, but you won't see it, because you see me as the offender. i admitted i can be offensive. when will this crowd realize they are too?"
Who is the "you" in this comment?
well there you go again. Lily, I will point out to you again, for the umpteenth time, and I took issue with only those words, spoken by FC. everyone else, including you, must have been pricked in someplace you are unaware you had. let me repeat it for you again:
"I am in the same boat about questioning Impeachment. I guess as a lot of the pundits put it, we must do what we can to have fair elections in 06 and hope we can change the makeup of congress enough to get the votes to do it."
the words above, in between the quotation marks, were spoken by FC, these were what I took issue with. I called FC, an idiot, if FC believed that changing parties, would solve our problems. I am not being the judge, history is the judge, look at history Lily. recent history proves this statement to be true.
I might point out that you said you agree that changing parties, will not solve all our problems. your quote Lily:
"No. Did I say it would? no. Did I ever claim that ANY single remedy would fix our problems? NO. Do I think any candidate would have solved all of our problems? No."
that is your quote above lily.
I never was talking to you, I was talking to FC. apparently FC cannot speak for themselves, and needs a pack of goons to speak for them. I did not engage you, you decided to engage me.
all I said period, was anyone that thought changing parties, would improve our lot, is an idiot. if you would like to call them a purple flower, call them a purple flower. I call them an idiot.
if you wish to sit here and talk about 30,000 other issues, go off in every direction, avoid the point, attack me for having the gall, to be blunt but yet say the exact same thing you just did in quotation marks, it's your right to do so. if you cannot see how you conflict with yourself, I'm sorry I cannot help you.
if you have a direct question for me, ask it. I had a direct question for you, and after over five attempts, you finally answered it. bravo!!! guess what? you agreed with me.
other than you would prefer that i do not call fc an idiot, the only other point i see you making is to assert i think i am better and smarter than all of you. i would never say that as i am not that big an ass.
you guys keep saying it though don't you? the last time i saw this kind of behavior, i was ten and on a playground.
try roberts rules of order, it's a good book, and stop watching crossfire, they use bad debate tactics.
by the way, since we both agree, on the one and only issue, I brought up, there's no need to argue this point further. if you have another issue you'd like to tackle, come over to my site, and tap me on the shoulder. I will take up any issue you want to discuss, but let me warn you, it will only be one issue at a time. I do not participate in free-form rants. I'm interested in both sides developing an understanding of one issue, and moving on. if I liked free-form rants, and thought they were productive, I'd spend all my time, watching cable news.
You don't like free form rants????
Um, newsflash...
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